In May 1989, we bid farewell to Alexis Carrington and Alex P. Keaton, said hello to Toonces the Driving Cat, and crossed our fingers for the health and safety of 28 children in Connecticut who spent Mother's Day Eve wandering through Sudsy's Carnival without adult supervision.
Brooke and Kaykay discuss the evolution of our cultural and personal concept of "family," with digressions on Motley Crew mirrors, helium balloon-based disasters, existential dread, and Kaykay's dreams of Ann M.
Visit us at our website, and follow us on:
In May 1989, we bid farewell to Alexis Carrington and Alex P. Keaton, said hello to Toonces the Driving Cat, and crossed our fingers for the health and safety of 28 children in Connecticut who spent Mother's Day Eve wandering through Sudsy's Carnival without adult supervision.
Brooke and Kaykay discuss the evolution of our cultural and personal concept of "family," with digressions on Motley Crew mirrors, helium balloon-based disasters, existential dread, and Kaykay's dreams of Ann M.
Visit us at our website, and follow us on:
Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about fight club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and the lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.
Kaykay Brady:And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist, and I'm a book noob.
Brooke Suchomel:This week's book was published in May 1989. So let's take a look back at the world when kids are reading Kristy and the Mother's Day Surprise for the very first time. So the music, the number ones that month, you had Bon Jovi's "I'll Be There For You" and Paula Abdul's "Forever Your Girl." And this was the peak month for Debbie Gibson's"Electric Youth" aka the perfume of many childhoods. Get this shit! "Electric Youth" didn't even crack the Top 10.
Kaykay Brady:Really?
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. Surprising, right? Like, if you were to come up with the list of Debbie Gibson's number one songs...
Kaykay Brady:This would definitely be on there.
Brooke Suchomel:Number 11, highest that it went. But the perfume? Number one in our hearts, right?
Kaykay Brady:Number one on our bodies.
Brooke Suchomel:Right, number one in our olfactory zone.
Kaykay Brady:In our olfactory glands. I thought we were gonna align on that! We were close.
Brooke Suchomel:You gotta love a bright pink perfume, right?
Kaykay Brady:I thought it was blue. I just assumed something that was electric would be blue.
Brooke Suchomel:Because you think of electric blue, right?
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, exactly.
Brooke Suchomel:That color, electric blue, was a moment. But no, it was pink.
Kaykay Brady:Hmm.
Brooke Suchomel:Gender dynamics, right?
Kaykay Brady:Sure. They're like, "We can't do blue! We're gonna blow their fuckin' minds! Women can't have blue in their room. They'll immediately grow gonads!"
Brooke Suchomel:That was the secret of Electric Youth.
Kaykay Brady:Grow gonads?
Brooke Suchomel:Uh huh. Yeah, you spray it, you immediately grow gonads. That's why they had to change the formula at the last minute to pink, so that didn't happen.
Kaykay Brady:Well, I feel like brands like Axe, that's what they're trying to do.
Brooke Suchomel:Oh, totally.
Kaykay Brady:That's what they're hoping happens. But instead, it really happens with Electric Youth.
Brooke Suchomel:I wonder if there's like, you know, you think about the different scents that they have for Axe, where it's like, Axe Dude or something, I don't know.
Kaykay Brady:Like, Ranch Hand. Combine Operator.
Brooke Suchomel:Axe Gonad. I can see that happening, for sure. At the movies, the number ones that month, I was like,"See No Evil, Hear No Evil? What the hell is this movie?" And it was a Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor flick.
Kaykay Brady:Oh, yeah. Okay, this was on HBO.
Brooke Suchomel:Did you ever watch it? So the title comes from, they play a blind
Kaykay Brady:I don't think so. man and a deaf man who like, go n the run or some shit. The escription of it sounded very ot good and very problematic, n basically every level you can magine. That was number one at he box office. Because if here's anything that Americans oved in 1989, it is some roblematic shit, which we'll et into. The other number one ovie that month was Indiana ones and the Last Crusade. I remember this one well.
Brooke Suchomel:Indiana Jones is just one of those things that just went right past me.
Kaykay Brady:Not for you.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, not for me. I said to my husband, I was like, "Is that the one with the melting face?" And he was just like, "No." Like, "How could you possibly?"
Kaykay Brady:No, this is the one where Sean Connery plays the dad, I believe. And he finds the cup of Jesus. I don't know, I remember these little moments.
Brooke Suchomel:Why do we call it the Holy Grail and not the Cup of Jesus?
Kaykay Brady:Did I just make that up?
Brooke Suchomel:Cup-a-Jesus! You know, it's like Lipton Cup-a-Soup.
Kaykay Brady:"I'll have a Cup o' Jaysus this marnin'! Gimme a Cup o' Jaysus!"
Brooke Suchomel:That's what you say when you go up for communion.
Kaykay Brady:Here's why I say that, because it's actually really cool. The scene always struck me, because Indiana Jones has to pick out the Holy Grail. There's all these ornate, diamond, emerald encrusted chalices, and then there's one shitty little whittled wood thing, and he said, "This is the cup of a carpenter." And I thought that was really cool. That's why I call it the Cup of Jesus. That's a cup of a carpenter.
Brooke Suchomel:Alright, we're rebranding the Holy Grail to Cup of Jesus. And then, so we mentioned that in 1989, Americans loved problematic shit.
Kaykay Brady:Oh, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel:And you can see that in some of the other movies that were released that month. So we also had Road House.
Kaykay Brady:Ah, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel:Have you seen Road House? Patrick Swayze?
Kaykay Brady:Of course.
Brooke Suchomel:If there is a movie that demands a queer feminist critique, it is Road House.
Kaykay Brady:Oh shit! Oh my god, in my mind, I thought you were gonna say a queer feminist retelling. And then I was just thinking Patrick Swayze is just this giant butch lesbian and instead of beating people up? Talks about their feelings.
Brooke Suchomel:It's Road House 2022, a lesbian talks to you about your feelings when you're mad.
Kaykay Brady:You think you're getting one thing when you stop at the Road House, but instead you get something completely different and you leave feeling much more positive.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, it's like Bonnie's Roadhouse or something. And it's like a nice cottage by the beach, and that's just where you go to talk about your feelings.
Kaykay Brady:There's like some nice driftwood furniture. Yeah, perfect.
Brooke Suchomel:But it's the same script. Exact same script, you just block it differently. Just use different intonation. You know, "Be nice."
Kaykay Brady:Ah, come on, movie executives. Do we have any movie executives watching this? We need to greenlight this.
Brooke Suchomel:The Patrick Swayze "Be nice" from a lesbian sitting in a really comfy chair with a nice cup of tea with a dog at her feet. It's the same words in a totally different context.
Kaykay Brady:It's magic.
Brooke Suchomel:This has to happen. A movie that absolutely does not need to be remade in any way, Listen to Me.
Kaykay Brady:Is this another deaf movie?
Brooke Suchomel:No. I can see why you would think that, considering that it came out with See No Evil, Hear No Evil. But when I read the description, I was like, this sounds like the worst movie I can imagine. Kirk Cameron plays Tucker Muldowney, the name of his character is Tucker Muldowney, the son of an Oklahoma chicken farmer, who wins a college scholarship for debate and argues against abortion in the national tournament versus Harvard, of course, in front of the Supreme Court judges.
Kaykay Brady:Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
Brooke Suchomel:This is how bad it is. So I found this review of it in the Deseret News, which is a Salt Lake City newspaper.
Kaykay Brady:Okay. I'm sure it was positive?
Brooke Suchomel:Not positive. The closing line, again from the Salt Lake City movie reviewer, closing line of the review,"Listen to Me should be titled Shut Up."
Kaykay Brady:Dunk. That's just like a Jordan 360 dunk.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, they were not a fan, which actually made me feel good.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, that gives you hope.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. And then on TV, a bunch of classic TV shows had their last episodes. Dynasty, Family Ties, Moonlighting, which ended on the same night as Family Ties, Small Wonder, do you remember Small Wonder?
Kaykay Brady:The little robot girl?
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. Miami Vice, and Kate and Allie. Do you remember Kate and Allie?
Kaykay Brady:I do, I do. Two moms, but not for modern reasons.
Brooke Suchomel:Right.
Kaykay Brady:Not the reasons I had hoped.
Brooke Suchomel:I love that we're calling lesbianism "modern reasons."
Kaykay Brady:Lesbianism."Modern reasons."
Brooke Suchomel:Smart. "Be a lesbian, be modern! Get with the times, Jesus Christ!" No, but this was a show that was so, like the themes of this show, so relevant to the book that we read, because this was a show about two divorced moms that were living together with their kids. So they started their own family.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, perfect to the like, "family is not just a mom and a dad and biological children."
Brooke Suchomel:Right. And also reflective of a very different time, in that they were a travel agent and a college student, and they live together in a Greenwich Village brownstone.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. Although, you know, there is that thing that happens in shows and movies where they give these people amazing apartments in New York City, and they never explain it.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, the classic Friends example.
Kaykay Brady:Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel:Then this was the premiere that we got, and this is not a TV show, but this is something that aired on TV that, I cannot tell you how foundational this was to my life. We got the very first appearance on television of Toonces the Driving Cat.
Kaykay Brady:"Toonces the driving cat. He drives around all over the town, Toonces the Driving Cat."
Brooke Suchomel:Good job.
Kaykay Brady:I'm familiar. It's like one of my favorite things of all time..
Brooke Suchomel:I don't know if it was just me, did you have like a "Holy shit, this was made for me" moment when Toonces appeared on the screen?
Kaykay Brady:Yes, I laughed for like an hour. And then I remember when the internet first hit, one of the things I was most glad for was to be able to find the Toonces gif. And I was like, "Toonces! I have Toonces at my fingertips 24 hours a day," and it was like, life would never be the same.
Brooke Suchomel:Right, unlimited Toonces.
Kaykay Brady:That was what the internet was to me.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, that's what the internet should be for, to be honest with you. Can we go back to early internet?
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, it's the best of the best.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. No, Toonces was like, if you haven't seen it, go look it up on YouTube. Oh my god. So it's T-O-O-N-C-E-S, Toonces the Driving Cat. It's like a cat puppet that would drive a car, and it would always drive the car off the cliff. And it's stupid and dumb and pointless and hilarious and fantastic. So Toonces first graced our screens.
Kaykay Brady:Go see it,
Brooke Suchomel:It was a recurring sketch, so Toonces would come back repeatedly.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, and always the same thing, over and over again.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. Same car gets crashed, multiple times in some sketches, and everybody's fine in the end. Toonces g ts back behind th
Kaykay Brady:It's so good. Why wasn't there a movie about Toonces? Fuck Listen to Me. Toonces.
Brooke Suchomel:Right, I want to see Toonces debate abortion rights in front of the Supreme Court. Toonces would destroy Kirk Cameron. Okay? Toonces is gonna stand up for the rights of women. So Toonces graced our screens, May 1989, and the 24th Baby-sitters Club book, Kristy and the Mother's Day Surprise, was released. So it's time for some back cover copy, and I quote, "Mother's Day is coming up, and the Baby-sitters have the same problem they do every year. What do they get their mothers? Kristy, especially, wants to do something nice for her mom. Mrs. Brewer has been acting kind of strange and secretive lately, and Kristy's worried about her. But then Kristy gets another one of her great ideas. Why don't the Baby-sitters treat their moms, and the mothers of the kids that they sit for, to a day off without any kids around? Together with Stacey, the Baby-sitters plan a gigantic baby-sitting party. It's a Mother's Day surprise that couldn't be beat, until Kristy's mom reveals a very special surprise of her own." End quote. So Kaykay, when I mentioned the title of this book at the end of our last episode, you were a little concerned. What did you think about the Mother's Day surprises that we get in this book?
Kaykay Brady:Well, you know, in line with a lot of the other books. 30 kids at a carnival, what could go wrong?
Brooke Suchomel:Sudsy's. Sudsy's Carnival.
Kaykay Brady:I mean, what could possibly go wrong? So it was, yet again, too much responsibility for little kids, just as I had expected, but nothing crazy happened. Everybody remained safe, but par for the course. The whole time, all I can hear in my head was that great Bikini Kill song, "I wanna gonna go to the carnival, though I know that it costs $16 now."
Brooke Suchomel:So one of the Mother's Day surprises was taking kids to Sudsy's Carnival. I'm getting a little concerned about the frequency of parking lot carnival appearances.
Kaykay Brady:What's going on in this town?
Brooke Suchomel:Right, why is everybody going to parking lot carnivals, whether they're on the west coast or the east coast? But then we also have the other Mother's Day surprise, which is, "Surprise! We've adopted a baby."
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, out of nowhere, and like, three quarters of the way through the book, it's like, "Here's a baby!"
Brooke Suchomel:So would you advise, just in your professional opinion...
Kaykay Brady:What to do at a carnival? You ask a therapist,"Dear therapist, I'm dying to know, what should I do at the carnival?"
Brooke Suchomel:Well, there's"What should I do at the carnival?" And then there's also, "I am planning to adopt a child, and I have six children already. When should I inform said children that we will be adopting a child, and does the number of spare bedrooms that you have come into play, at any time, when you justify your refusal to tell your children that you will be adopting a child until the night before?"
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, it's definitely not the night before. That is not the answer that I would give. And also, again, I'm gonna go straight for what they're fighting.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, let's do it.
Kaykay Brady:Because what they seem to be fighting is integration. The family is fighting to integrate, right, this blended family is fighting to integrate. And then also, you get a mirror of it with the kids at the carnival. They're fighting to integrate those kids in groups that aren't going to, like, kill each other.
Brooke Suchomel:That's a really good point.
Kaykay Brady:So I see the whole book about integration. And if a system is already stressed, which is what's happening during integration, it's really never a great idea to introduce more stress, and like, extremely high stress that you would get from a little baby. So it's kind of like, "Oh, our marriage is breaking up. Let's have a baby." You know, that's also something a therapist would never recommend.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. And that comes up pretty explicitly at the end, when Kristy is like,"We weren't really coming together perfectly as a family, and so that's what Emily Michelle is for!" Emily Michelle being the name of the two year old they adopt from Vietnam. And it's like...
Kaykay Brady:It's super problematic.
Brooke Suchomel:I don't think the burden is on the baby to solve your problems.
Kaykay Brady:Exactly. And it's disturbing. All the language I found really disturbing around,"She's ours. She's ours now. She's ours, she's mine, she's David Michael's." It was just so, uh, grasping. And it's a tremendous amount of pressure to put on a little baby, and a very little stressed baby. A baby who has been through the worst crisis a human being could go through, which is losing your primary attachment figure.
Brooke Suchomel:Right.
Kaykay Brady:So...concerning. Concerning.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah.
Kaykay Brady:Let's see how this goes.
Brooke Suchomel:It's interesting. There was language where Kristy's like, "Well, she's not mom and Watson's, but she's ours." So there was some weird sort of tension there at the end about biological versus non biological family that I found to be discordant with what we got earlier, because my take on what they were fighting was heteronormative definitions of family. I actually found a lot of the language early on in the book to be really progressive. And I think I see where Ann M. was going, was trying to make a very progressive "just because Emily Michelle isn't biologically mom and Watson's doesn't mean that she's not a part of our family." But just the way that it was like, "but she's not mom and Watson's baby," but it's like, "but she is." So you're just saying she's not biologically- the non-inclusion of the word"biological" as a qualifier there gave it a little bit of a spin that was unintentional, I think. But the very opening paragraph, I thought was really progressive, because Kristy says, "Is a family really a mother, a father and a kid or two? I hope not. Because if that's a family, then I haven't got one, and neither do a lot of people I know." So it seems like this was a book where Ann M. was taking the opportunity to really address, you know, we got this previously with Dawn on the Coast too with like, "Where do you find your place when you aren't living within a nuclear family?" We mentioned Family Ties. You had a lot of these family shows where it was all about the nuclear family together, and you had a lot of people in the late 80s that were not in a nuclear family. Because, you know, people were getting divorced, and there were some flexibilities starting to happen about what is sort of acceptable for a family.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, gay people having children, that started to be in the media.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. So I looked up, do you know the book Heather Has Two Mommies?
Kaykay Brady:Yes, it's a kids book, right?
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah.
Kaykay Brady:It caused a huge sensation slash scandal, right?
Brooke Suchomel:It's one of the top 10 most protested against books at libraries and things like that. That came out in '89, but it didn't come out until the end of 1989. So like, that wasn't out at the time that this book was published, but the discussions were happening, you know, rumblings. Gay adoption was starting to be a topic that was talked about more, starting in the mid 80s. Around 1985 is when you started to get the first same sex partners adopting, if their partner had a biological child, or you know, had a surrogate, and then the same sex partner being able to get on as an adoptive parent to that child.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, have any parental rights.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, that was really, really recently happening. So there was definitely discussions about,"What is a family? What makes a family?" And I thought that it was really good to see that reflected in this book. I just think, you know, my advice is, talk to your family if you're going to be adding to that family. Not everything needs to be a surprise. Some things are best not to be a surprise, you know?
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, definitely. At least a couple weeks. I mean, they love to do things on truncated timelines in this household.
Brooke Suchomel:Not just in the household, but in the book series as a whole, I'm really picking up this theme of people making big decisions on their own, like working them out internally, instead of working them out with the people who will be affected. We just talked about that in our last episode, with Dawn not talking with her mom about how she was feeling about possibly staying in California and such. It's all, like, "Work everything out in your head, and then just announce to the world what your decision is." And I guess I get that from like a narrative standpoint, but when you see it happen over and over and over again in a book series, it starts to give you the impression that like, this is a good thing to do. Just work everything out yourself, and then let people know what you decide. And I don't think that that is wise.
Kaykay Brady:It's such a good point, and I think it's in line with the times. There's a reason why the term "processing" didn't
Brooke Suchomel:For sure. exist then, you know. It just felt like, "Oh, I need to process this, I need to work this through with you," I just don't think culturally, this was even part of human relationship. Certainly, that tracks for me in my families and friendships, nobody knew how to do that. It feels like this is sort of a newer skill that people are learning now, and people are being raised that way. But you're totally right, and it totally tracks with the time. Well, I think we're seeing things change in that regard now, because those of us that came up under the old way know that didn't work.
Kaykay Brady:What are you talking about? I'm convinced that all those guys that stormed the Capitol had processed all of their emotions.
Brooke Suchomel:Oh, yeah. No, I know their therapists totally endorse their decision to travel to the Capitol.
Kaykay Brady:They definitely worked through all the things in their families.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, this was a decision that they came to after taking a lot of thought, really, really sitting down with mental health professionals, and trying to decide what the best course of action would be. That's where they landed. So a change in culture definitely hasn't spread throughout the entire culture yet, but I do think that there are certainly much more of us now that, I mean, just look at like, therapy isn't the kind of thing that it was back then. Like, you talk through things. The whole concept of it's good to talk about your feelings, it's good to acknowledge how you're feeling.
Kaykay Brady:You're totally right. And therapy used to be seen for people that were quote unquote, "sick."
Brooke Suchomel:Or quote unquote, "crazy."
Kaykay Brady:Right, yeah. And now, therapy is largely viewed as a path to self actualization that anybody could make use of, no matter where you are in the spectrum of mental health. And it's so cool, kids that I work with, they believe this 100%. The stigma that you and I grew up with about therapy and mental health? It's so different now. The kids are like, they love having a therapist. They see it as super necessary, like going to the gym or eating your vegetables.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, it's wellness. And I think a big part of that is that, at least in my experience, it's not just about processing, but it's also about communication, right? Like figuring out how can you communicate with the people around you, with your loved ones, etc. And that's what you see, again, intergenerationally, with few exceptions, you don't get great communication in these books, which is reflective of the times.
Kaykay Brady:Definitely.
Brooke Suchomel:You want better for these kids, for sure. But I do think that the fact that they're grappling with things like, "What is a family? How do you relate to your family?" You actually see, like, Kristy has a really good conversation with Andrew, where Andrew is really concerned and she can pick up, she's like, "I can tell that Andrew is upset that he's not going to be the youngest member of the family anymore, and he needs reassurance that he will still be loved, just as much as he was before, when he's no longer the youngest member of the family."
Kaykay Brady:Right.
Brooke Suchomel:So she says, like, "I knew that what he really needed was, he just needed to talk to somebody. He just needed a hug. He just needed reassurance." And so she says to him, this is a quote from her, "I will always love you. No matter what. Even if we adopt 16 more kids, I will always love you, because you're Andrew," you know, and says, "So will everyone else." Again, you see communication happening in these books, but it's always like, the baby-sitters communicating with other characters who are their age or
Kaykay Brady:The other interesting thing that I've younger. noticed about this communication is the baby-sitters are sort of, how to put this...they're trying to fix the other person's emotion for them. We're getting to that boundary bleed again, where they're sort of age inappropriately and also relationship inappropriately kind of trying to fix that person's emotion and make it go away. Versus parenting now advice is to help the kid name their emotion. So rather than saying like, "Don't worry, you're always going to be blah, blah, blah," just to be like,"Oh, you got some anxiety, buddy. It's hard, right?"
Brooke Suchomel:To name the feeling.
Kaykay Brady:Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel:To see it, to recognize it.
Kaykay Brady:To name it. That's like the first thing you have to do with kids, because that's what's really making them anxious is their feelings. So rather than take it on yourself and fix it, like the Baby-sitters Club always do, you kind of invite it forward and like, hold it together.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah.
Kaykay Brady:I was flirting with the idea of also saying the baby-sitters are fighting again to like, make everything okay, in ways that are not age or relationship appropriate.
Brooke Suchomel:Right, with the whole, "We're going to not only do something special for our moms, but we're going to do something special for every mom. And we're going to pay for this out of our own treasury."
Kaykay Brady:Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, it's that position of like, they see themselves as being in service, which is good, to have a part of your personality being like, "I want to serve others, I want to help others." But when that becomes your whole identity, that's when you can get into really risky territory.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. Or when it compromises your own healthy boundaries, in ways that you might not even be able to see. That's when it gets really hard, because you get that kind of emotional bleed, which becomes a burden that a 12 and 13 year old shouldn't really carry.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, definitely.
Kaykay Brady:But of course they are, because of the nature of the situation. And they're filling the holes that need to be filled, which is really admirable.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, definitely. And that gets down to like, these kids, their motives and their intentions are all very good and pure. But all of these kids are kind of self parenting in a way.
Kaykay Brady:Definitely, and parenting each other.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, and so not quite figuring out how to work through the challenges they encounter.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. And also, the other thing you see is like, what were Kristy's feelings about this baby? You don't really see it, because she's fixated on Andrew's feelings, mostly. Which we've seen before with her, and a lot of the characters, where they'll be more preoccupied with how other people are feeling. It's like, Oh, I wonder what this character is feeling? You don't get to see it.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. So you mentioned that they were fighting issues with integration. How did you see that playing out in terms of like, what tools you saw them using? How they were working through that, together?
Kaykay Brady:With the family, they tried to use Emily as a tool. And I think we started the podcast with like a, "Ehh..."
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah.
Kaykay Brady:You know, you can't really think of a whole lot of tools that I'm seeing for them to integrate. And then at the carnival, I think they're using distraction. Fun and novelty and excitement as a way to integrate, and it definitely works.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. That was a really good point that I didn't think of, how the concern was like, how are these kids within groups going to get along together? Kristy was particularly concerned about her group, which is Karen and Andrew and then Shea Rodowsky, who's much older than them. I mean, in kid years, right? Like, being nine versus being four and six is a big change. And as you were talking about how these kids take on caretaking roles, you see that happen within that group too, where Shea then gets to play the role of older kid who's a nurturing figure and all of that. So again, it's like, how do you integrate? You give the oldest responsibility to care for the younger ones. That's how you integrate a family and it's like, "ehhhh..."
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, and then it makes you think about, you know, I'm really curious about Kristy's feelings about the family situation, because she's the oldest girl. And we know from this book that the kids tend to take on the parenting roles, and it's usually not the older boys. It's usually the older females. So we'll see how that goes.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, it's gonna be girls take care of kids, because that's just what we see. Unless you're Logan, and then you're held up as some shining example as like, "peak man," because once every 20 books you'll watch a kid
Kaykay Brady:Sashay in.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, and you get the same thing with, did you notice the how they talk about,"Well, what are we going to do with the babies that are too young to go to the carnival?" Kristy's like, "I'm not sure how we're going to get them to do this." But the idea of, "Let's ask the dads if they agree to care for their own fucking kids."
Kaykay Brady:To quote unquote,"babysit" their kids.
Brooke Suchomel:Right! As a favor to their wives for like, a day, like, "Will you agree to provide a base level of care for your own offspring for eight hours? Do you think you can handle that?" That's 80s. So that's a Most 80s Moment as well. I would like to say that's a Most 80s Moment, but let's be honest, pick any decade, except for I will say, recently. Particularly I think in the pandemic, primary caretakers are fed the fuck up with non primary caretakers who aren't pulling their weight. So, you know, we still have the gender issue happening there, but it's being called out as bullshit. Whereas in the 80s, it was like, "Oh, God, you think that dad would be willing to drop his kid off?"
Kaykay Brady:"Oh, what a prince!"
Brooke Suchomel:"You think that's a possibility? What an evolved specimen! Oh, ladies!" God. Yeah.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, I definitely clocked that and groaned. It's like, oh, gosh, the emotional effort and turmoil is all the women's, for sure. And the other work, too.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. And did you clock that Mr. Barrett, you know, Buddy and Marnie, the Dawn and the Impossible Three kids? Mr. Pike, Mallory's dad, actually watches the youngest Barrett baby, so that Mrs. Barrett can have a day off. Mr. Barrett exists in this world, and he lives in Stoneybrook! But her neighbor watches her baby, because, you know, how can you ask the dad to do something that might not be his custodial weekend?
Kaykay Brady:Come on. It could be Sunday! NFL could be on. Let's prioritize, people. All right, I'm just taking the opportunity to tell you that I had a dream that I met Ann Martin last night.
Brooke Suchomel:Did you really? How'd it go?
Kaykay Brady:Well, it was really funny. Of course I met her at a mall.
Brooke Suchomel:80s.
Kaykay Brady:She had like, an office in a mall. Like in the back, in the security part, Ann M. Martin had an office.
Brooke Suchomel:Wait, Ann M. Martin had an office in the security section of a mall? Fabulous. Fabulous.
Kaykay Brady:The only reason I met her was because I lost my phone and I lost my wallet. And this is totally, listeners, my computer shit the bed last night and so I was worrying about how am I going to do the podcast today without my computer, so this is totally anxiety about my computer. But I lost my phone, I lost my wallet, and the security people wouldn't help me. I couldn't find anyone to help me find my phone or my wallet, and then I was going to the security offices just looking for somebody and then boom, I open the door. Ann M. Martin, sitting there.
Brooke Suchomel:She's like,"I'm here to help! Yeah, let's go find your phone together. That's what I do."
Kaykay Brady:All sudden, I was like, Well, alright, put the phone in the wallet away in your mind. Ann M. Martin is here, you gotta talk to her. So I was talking to her about women's emotional labor. I don't know why that was the topic of conversation. And then I very coyly got around to asking her if she ever did podcasts. And she said no, but that she might do it for the right podcast.
Brooke Suchomel:Oh, wow.
Kaykay Brady:Anyway, and then I was like, Alright, great. And I got her number, woot woot.
Brooke Suchomel:Did you call it?
Kaykay Brady:I didn't. The dream basically ended here, where I had written down her number. And then I remembered where my wallet was, and I found my phone and my wallet.
Brooke Suchomel:So talking to Ann M. Martin did help you find your phone. It's exactly what you needed. Did you write down the number as soon as you woke up? And you called it. Did the number start K-L-5?
Kaykay Brady:Her actual number. Oh, shit! No, I didn't write it down. But here's the crazy thing about dreams. Do you know that in dreams you can't read? This is actually one of the ways that you can practice lucid dreaming. I'm going way down a rabbit hole that maybe no one's interested in, but I love it, so I'm fucking going. The way that you practice lucid dreaming is when you're awake, you look at something, like I'm looking at a guitar right now that says Gibson. So I look at it, it says Gibson, and I look away. And when I look back, if it still says Gibson, I know I'm awake. So if you start doing this consciously while you're awake, you'll start to do it in your dreams. And that's how you can start to notice in your dreams that you're dreaming. Because anytime there's something written, you'll see it, you'll look away, look back, it'll be different.
Brooke Suchomel:Interesting.
Kaykay Brady:So anyway, you can't keep numbers and letters in dreams. They don't stay.
Brooke Suchomel:Hmm. I'm so wondering if Ann M. Martin had a dream last night that she was in an office in the back of a mall, and someone came to her and asked her for help, and if she would be in a podcast.
Kaykay Brady:Well, I am a Pisces, so I think it's really possible because I do have psychic powers. I don't know if they're that great.
Brooke Suchomel:Are Pisces psychic? Is that a thing?
Kaykay Brady:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We swim in the water, like we're swimming in that psychic water, dude.
Brooke Suchomel:Whooooooaaaaa... Duuuuuuuude...
Kaykay Brady:Whooooooaaaaa. Did we take an edible or what? Lucid dreaming? Psychic waters? Yeah. We have one foot in this world, one foot in the other because we're the end of the zodiac.
Brooke Suchomel:I'm a Gemini.
Kaykay Brady:You're the twin. You're Marnie and Carnie. Marnie and Marian?
Brooke Suchomel:Marnie and Carnie! With all of the carnivals we get, yes. Yes. I'm waiting for a carnie to join the Baby-sitters Club.
Kaykay Brady:"I wanna go to the carnival. I'm gonna win that Motley Crue mirror if it fucking kills me!" That's also a lyric from the song. I knew you'd like that.
Brooke Suchomel:Awesome! So good. I remember those fucking things. Holy shit.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, Hard Rock mirrors. Absolutely. With the band on the mirror. Like, you wanna look at fucking Axl Rose when you're brushing your teeth? I don't know.
Brooke Suchomel:Oh, god, that's delightful. My God. Ah, yeah. So this was an interesting book. I mean, as we're talking through it, I'm conflicted. Because again, I thought for the majority of it, I was like, This is really good. Except I knew what was coming. I knew that Emily Michelle was going to be coming at the end. And so I was more concerned about what was not being said in this book.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, sounds like you were kind of bracing for that.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. But what was being said, for the most part, I thought was pretty progressive for the time. When you see like, the concept of a chosen family is basically described here. And again, looking at this from a queer read, that is so key. That is so key. I can imagine, if you're a kid who feels left out, and like they won't fit into their family, or like their family doesn't meet the definition of like, Here's a family that I see in the media. Again, that's why we always talk about the pop culture that was going on at the time. Because when you're a kid, that's how you're learning about the world. Like, what's coming at you from the broader media? And then, what lessons are you getting from the books that you read? To have a different definition of family be acknowledged at this time, I think is is a big deal. And, you know, I mentioned I thought that they were fighting this heteronormative definition of family. And I think the tools that they use is, they go through and they make their own definitions. And it's best when they talk about that, and not just be like, "We're defining this family as you've got a new sister. Surprise!" But when th y are talking it through I think it's really good. L ke, you see Mary Anne gives a other's Day gift to her dad. She s like, "I'm tired of feeling ad when Mother's Day comes ar und. I might not have a mom, ut my dad tries his best to play both roles." And that's a way for her to feel like she c n be a part of this holiday. nd then Kristy says straight u that her biological dad doesn't count as family. This is a direc quote, "Somebody who never wri es, never calls, never remember your birthday, never says e loves you, doesn't count at al." And again, I'm looking at tha from like, a queer read.
Kaykay Brady:Exactly.
Brooke Suchomel:Me myself not being a queer person, not saying that I'm trying to speak for the community, but I can imagine that having that. It's like, if somebody doesn't love you for who you are, somebody doesn't acknowledge you, if you're not getting something good from this person who may be biologically related to you, they don't have to be considered your family. You can make your own family.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, it's the whole idea of chosen family. Queer people hold that concept very dear, for the exact reasons you're describing. Queer people are more open to really critically analyzing who serves you, and who tears you down? And like, what a cool concept for the world, really. That's a nice concept to bleed over into the rest of the world. It really holds us accountable to each other in a way that's beyond biology. Like, oh, you gave birth or you contributed sperm, and that's all you got to do. The higher level of accountability is a really good thing.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, just because we have shared genes, that doesn't give you a pass, you know. And so to focus on family being like, Kristy says,"A family is just a group of people that love each other," and that that love matters more than biology.
Kaykay Brady:It's really strengths based.
Brooke Suchomel:Totally.
Kaykay Brady:You know, for Mary Anne, instead of focusing on what she doesn't have, which is her mother, to focus on, what does she have? Well, she has her father, and celebrating that. That's a very strengths based approach, always creates really good outcomes for people when they can see their life through the strengths versus the deficits. So I thought that was pretty cool for Mary Anne, in this book.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. And it allows you to create an environment that enables you to thrive and not just have to put up with people and actions that don't serve you because they are your quote, unquote, "family." The whole concept of a chosen family is you are choosing to be in that family. Everyone is choosing to be a part of it. And that's not something that you get to do with your biological family. If you have a biological family that does what a definition of a family that serves you does, that's great. But if you don't, that's not necessarily your fault. To have somebody basically put that down in words, particularly kids that might be growing up without contact with loved ones, or I shouldn't even say "loved ones," because I think that substituting in the word "loved one" for a father that has nothing to do with you? No.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. And what you say is really, really important, because kids, depending on their age, will always blame themselves for a lost parent, because it's easier to believe that you caused it than to believe that this person who's put on this earth to care for you either won't or can't. That is too terrifying, so kids will always blame themselves. So you're right, that explicit message of "it is not your fault" is really important.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah. And I think they do that, because it's like if, if I caused it, then I can change it.
Kaykay Brady:Exactly. Yeah. Because it puts it under the realm of your control, which feels a lot safer.
Brooke Suchomel:And to realize that maybe you just don't have a dad or don't have a mom that's going to be both what society expects from a dad or a mom, or what you need from a dad or a mom. If that's the case, then I'm sorry, that really sucks. But it's not your fault, and you can find that love and support and reliability elsewhere. That's okay, it does not have to be biologically related.
Kaykay Brady:Totally.
Brooke Suchomel:The fact that this book makes that, I mean, not even implicit messages, there are explicit messages throughout that blood does not make a family. And I think that's why you see, you know, I think that's why Emily Michelle being adopted, it's sort of carrying that metaphor through. I think that's fine, there's a way to do that that doesn't also give these problematic messages that we can pick up on. But the intention, I think, is there and is good, and it really drives that theme home. I think the theme throughout the book is"What makes a family?" and you see that families are inherently dynamic systems. Kristy talks about time and change a lot, too, and so I was like, that seems like another theme. How does that fit in? And then I was like, well, families change over time. Your position in a family will change. Like, you're the youngest now, you're probably not going to be the youngest later. You know, at some point, people will age. You are the youngest, and now you're the oldest at some point. That's just the way that families work. She says, "Time is funny." That's a direct quote from her when she's outside of her old home, and she feels removed from it. She mentions Mimi's getting older and slower, and she says,"I wish people didn't have to change, but they do." There is this whole concept of, families change and evolve, and how do you still feel grounded within your family in the midst of all of that change? That's a really big question, and a really big and important topic for kids to grapple with.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, and also, I have to say, this is a space where I feel like the 80s deserves a shout out. A rare positive shout out.
Brooke Suchomel:Rare. A rare positive 80s thing.
Kaykay Brady:The music, the movies, those are all good shout outs. But in terms of emotions and approaches to life and death, I do feel that there was a little bit more acceptance of aging, dying, human frailty. It feels like today, everything is so wrapped up in like, "You can control it. Just eat right, just exercise." Everything gets wrapped up in this wellness package today. Whereas, the 80s, I do feel like there was a little bit more space for, "Hey, people get old. People die. It's not always their fault," and I'm seeing a little bit with Mimi, right? Because nobody's like,"Mimi is not doing her physical therapy, God damn her, so she's getting sick" or whatever. It's just like, "Mimi had a stroke. Mimi's getting older. That is how it goes sometimes." And they really accept when she's struggling. They say she kind of comes in and out. She'll sometimes be really lucid and really present, sometimes she'll sort of drift off. And there's a real acceptance to that, which I appreciate, and I feel like we've been losing very recently.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, I wonder if it's because when you acknowledge that something is just inevitable, and it's you need to grapple with the inevitability instead of trying to change it, it's much harder to sell you shit if it's like,"This is inevitable." When you're like, "You can change it, I'm going to sell you shit," whether it's a physical, literally selling you shit, or whether it is like, "I'm selling you this bullshit, and you're gonna listen to me and give me ratings, so that I can try to alleviate this concern that you're feeling, this sort of dread that you're feeling, existential dread. Just spend away to avoid existential dread." Doesn't work, and that's when you end up at the Capitol. But anyway.
Kaykay Brady:It definitely doesn't work. And the other thing is, not only is it a system that is going to profit off of your existential dread, but back to that issue of control, it's so much easier for you to believe that you control it, and it's your fault. So a lot of people have this, this is the crux of healthism, right? The crux of healthism is, "You control your health completely, and everything that goes wrong with you is your own fault." In fact, people would rather hear that and believe that, than believe the reality, which is most of your health is social determinants or genetic determinants, or a lot of determinants that you don't control at all. People would rather feel in control and be at fault, than accept and grapple with existential dread, which has a lot to do with loss of control, existential dread, you know?
Brooke Suchomel:And bad actors know that and can take full advantage of that, and that makes you a really reliable consumer for them.
Kaykay Brady:Yep.
Brooke Suchomel:Question that shit.
Kaykay Brady:Question that shit. Healthism? Fuck you. Ableism? Shove it up your ass. I'm just getting down to brass tacks! I'm just gonna yell at isms.
Brooke Suchomel:Fuck isms. Fuck every ism.
Kaykay Brady:Fuck isms!
Brooke Suchomel:Since we're on the topic of things that were actually better in the 80s, did you have any other Most 80s Moments, positive or negative?
Kaykay Brady:Oh fuck yes, you know, I did.
Brooke Suchomel:This one was fun.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. So I picked a couple. One was they were talking about watching Love Story. Now, this was a 70s movies, but it was watched all the time in the 80s and it was on TV a lot. The other I had was when you made a card for your mom, and you put her name down the side, and then put adjectives to describe each letter in the name. I don't know what those are called, that thing. We loved those in the 80s.
Brooke Suchomel:That's still very much a thing.
Kaykay Brady:I wondered. I was like, I wonder if kids are still doing that.
Brooke Suchomel:I think that's a kid thing.
Kaykay Brady:So it was my 80s memory.
Brooke Suchomel:To us, kid things equal the 80s.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. How about you, what did you have?
Brooke Suchomel:Oh my God, there were so many. Kristy says at one point, "I coulda had a V8!"
Kaykay Brady:Oh shit, yeah.
Brooke Suchomel:So she like brain farted or something, and said if she was in a commercial, she would have smacked her head and said, "I coulda had a V8!," which was a commercial for V8. I'm sure they still make V8, but it's something Dawn would drink, probably. Like eight different vegetables in a juice.
Kaykay Brady:V8 was part of that health food boon.
Brooke Suchomel:And it was very much the 80s equivalent to the Holiday Inn Express commercials, where it's like, "No, I didn't do this, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express," where it implies that it makes you smarter. V8 definitely implied, drinking V8 will make you smarter.
Kaykay Brady:My family only bought V8 when they were making Bloody Marys. Does that count?
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, that makes you smarter. Yeah, for sure. For sure.
Kaykay Brady:That was the only time anyone in my family drank V8 was for Bloody Marys.
Brooke Suchomel:I don't think we ever had V8, from what I remember. I think I might have had one sip of V8, and it tasted like shit.
Kaykay Brady:It tastes like ass. As my grandmother would say, "It tastes like something I already ate." Yeah, so spicy V8, you can do, because there's so much spice in it that you could choke it down.
Brooke Suchomel:I just don't...ugh, no.
Kaykay Brady:But it's all gross.
Brooke Suchomel:No thank you. Stacey wears jellies.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, jellies!
Brooke Suchomel:And she wears them with a pink jumpsuit and lacy white socks. The lacy white socks were definitely a thing in the 80s, and the jelly shoes. Did you ever wear jellies?
Kaykay Brady:I did have jellies. I thought they were really stupid. Because if you got sand in there, watch out. I mean, you just lost your skin on your feet if you got sand in there, which, you're wearing them at the beach in the summer, you're going to get sand in there!
Brooke Suchomel:Jellies are excruciatingly painful shoes.
Kaykay Brady:All right, good.
Brooke Suchomel:It's just like tight plastic on your feet. It's blisters. You take off jellies, and you have blisters on your feet in the shape of jellies.
Kaykay Brady:So I thought this is just going to be like, a functional lesbian thumbs down, but I'm also getting a straight girl thumbs down. All right.
Brooke Suchomel:No, when the came back around for a lit
Kaykay Brady:Yes. And there was no squishy rubber in that. That le bit in the 90s, I was lik, "No. No." I mean, I was tot lly into fashion trends, and I w s like, I'm taking a pass on thi one. Because I've gotta h ve comfortable feet, and jellies do not make for comfortable fe t. We also had Claire Pike go ng headfirst down a slide that as probably metal. She's fi e. Nobody was concerned that he was going headfirst dow a slide. was a cement playground, I'm sure.
Brooke Suchomel:Oh, yeah. If she was lucky, gravel. You know, she's going headfirst into gravel.
Kaykay Brady:Cushy gravel playgrounds.
Brooke Suchomel:Mm hmm. And then, releasing helium balloons into the air. So all of the kids are at the carnival, they get a free helium balloon. Jackie immediately lets his go and says, "They go to the moon!" And then all of the kids let their helium balloons go, literally the moment that they got it, except for Jamie. And it reminded me, like, was that a thing at your school? Did you ever have balloon releases?
Kaykay Brady:No. I mean, I remember releasing my own balloons. But no, not some sort of socially sanctioned balloon race. You did this in Iowa?
Brooke Suchomel:Yes. I checked with my husband, and he did as well. We would have, school wide, every kid at the school would get a helium balloon. And we would write our names on index cards, and information about us, "write us back wherever you get this." So you would have literally thousands of kids releasing these helium balloons up into the air, just as a way to try to track to see how far they went, or to make a pen pal or some shit.
Kaykay Brady:How nice! Some whale on the other side of the world gets to eat your balloon and die with your name in his stomach.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, we killed so many animals in the 80s.
Kaykay Brady:That's your pen pal, is a dead whale. Speaking of existential dread! That's really fucked up.
Brooke Suchomel:But that was such a thing. Caring for the environment was like, you'd be told "don't litter," but then you go out and you release a fuck ton of helium balloons. This was super a thing. Have you heard about the Cleveland Balloonfest?
Kaykay Brady:Uh uh.
Brooke Suchomel:So in 1986, Cleveland was trying to do a big publicity stunt to get attention for Cleveland, and decided that they were going to set the Guinness Book of World Records for biggest balloon release. That had been set the previous year, Disneyland did it for their 30th anniversary. Americans are just like, "Let's find out how many whales I can kill. Let's make this happen." So they released 1.5 million balloons...
Kaykay Brady:Holy shit!
Brooke Suchomel:During a rainstorm. So all of those balloons came right back down and coated Cleveland, made it to where they had to shut down the airport.
Kaykay Brady:Holy shit!
Brooke Suchomel:There were people that, they were trying to do search and rescue missions to save these boaters that were stranded, and they had to call off search and rescue missions. So people died because they had to call it off, cuz you couldn't go anywhere because these fucking balloons were everywhere. So they were the final Guinness World Record holder for Most Balloons Released. They're not doing that anymore.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah. Dang!
Brooke Suchomel:But after that, we were still- I mean, that was 1986. We were still releasing those balloons well after that, so America didn't exactly learn its lesson.
Kaykay Brady:I had no idea the scale of balloon release. I truly did not.
Brooke Suchomel:It was a huge thing. And yeah, that's what you see in the book. All the kids are like, "Oh, yay! Balloons, they go to the moon!"
Kaykay Brady:"This is an incredible forever renewable resource!"
Brooke Suchomel:"Yay!" Yeah, that's the 80s, not giving a shit about the environment.
Kaykay Brady:Super 80s. There's a great Mad Men episode where they're taking a picnic, and the dad gets up at the end and he stretches and he has a beer in his hand and he hawks it into the woods. I remember my dad doing that, 100%.
Brooke Suchomel:Betty Draper takes the picnic blanket and shakes it, and all the trash goes everywhere and they just walk away.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, that's exactly what it was like.
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, it wasn't to that same extent in the 80s, but-
Kaykay Brady:I mean, it was in my family. Because they were more like, urban folks, and there was never any land to care for, so...
Brooke Suchomel:Yeah, it's just like, "Trash! It just goes everywhere." Right.
Kaykay Brady:"That's trash! We live in trash."
Brooke Suchomel:Ah, the 80s."We live in trash." What a delight.
Kaykay Brady:A delight. I also want to give Kristy a shout out this episode, which is, Kristy is really trying not to be bossy.
Brooke Suchomel:She is.
Kaykay Brady:We wondered at the end of last episode or the episode before, we were like,"Will this hold? Will Kristy continue to work on this?" And she did this episode, so I feel that she deserves a shout out.
Brooke Suchomel:Good job, Kristy.
Kaykay Brady:Good job, Kristy.
Brooke Suchomel:Proud of Kristy. Yeah, we see some growth happening. I think it was really great that Mary Anne, she was very quiet in the background, you could tell everyone is just concerned about Mary Anne.
Kaykay Brady:Yeah, she didn't really say much.
Brooke Suchomel:And then for her to come out and be like,"You know what? My dad will be my mom on Mother's Day," so she feels like she could participate. It was good growth.
Kaykay Brady:It was great growth.
Brooke Suchomel:And she is going to be the protagonist in our next book.
Kaykay Brady:Ooh!
Brooke Suchomel:You get a lot of Nancy Drew throughout the series, and this next book is giving me Nancy Drew vibes.
Kaykay Brady:Giving you Nancy Drew realness!
Brooke Suchomel:Mary Anne is serving Nancy Drew realness in the next book, which is Mary Anne and the Search for Tigger. So I am excited to see Mary Anne serve that Nancy Drew realness with some sass and flair, I hope, in our next episode.
Kaykay Brady:Oh, I'm pumped.
Brooke Suchomel:But until then...
Kaykay Brady:Just keep sittin'![THEME] Gimme a cup of Jaysus.