For our 50th episode (!!!), we're heading back to August 1990, when Mariah Carey's debut had the power on the pop charts, existential dread dominated the box office, and Ferris Bueller moved to...Santa Monica? Pop culture was getting, getting, getting kinda hectic, and so was the Ramsey household.
Brooke and Kaykay discuss the shifting family dynamics in Jessi's Baby-sitter and its exploration of the fine balance between interpersonal support and control, with diversions on friendship bracelets and private school field trips.
Visit us at our website, and follow us on:
For our 50th episode (!!!), we're heading back to August 1990, when Mariah Carey's debut had the power on the pop charts, existential dread dominated the box office, and Ferris Bueller moved to...Santa Monica? Pop culture was getting, getting, getting kinda hectic, and so was the Ramsey household.
Brooke and Kaykay discuss the shifting family dynamics in Jessi's Baby-sitter and its exploration of the fine balance between interpersonal support and control, with diversions on friendship bracelets and private school field trips.
Visit us at our website, and follow us on:
[00:00:00] Brooke: Welcome to the Baby-sitters Fight Club, where the first rule is, you don't talk about Fight Club. Instead, you talk about the battles fought and the lessons learned in the Baby-sitters Club series of books by Ann M. Martin. I'm Brooke Suchomel, an editor who's revisiting these books after 30 years.
[00:00:24] Kaykay: And I'm Kaykay Brady. I'm a therapist and I'm new to the books.
[00:00:27] Brooke: And this week, for our 50th episode-
[00:00:31] Kaykay: Hey!
[00:00:35] Brooke: Very exciting. Thank you for listening to us for this long, listeners.
[00:00:40] Kaykay: Yes, dear listeners!
[00:00:42] Brooke: Such a delight. Just crazy to think that like this little question that I had for you as I was out for a walk one pandemic day of like, "Hey, would this be fun for us to do?" And here we are, 50 episodes later.
[00:00:56] Kaykay: When it was just a glimmer in your eye.
[00:00:57] Brooke: Just a glimmer in my "what the fuck is happening in 2020 America" eye. And here we are in 2022, saying "what the fuck is happening?" together.
[00:01:07] Kaykay: Hey, look at that. Consistency.
[00:01:10] Brooke: Consistency. So let's talk about what the fuck was happening in August 1990 to start our 50th episode. Music, number one this month, the entire month, Mariah Carey's "Vision of Love," her debut single.
[00:01:25] Kaykay: "I had a vision of love."
[00:01:28] Brooke: Yeah. Mariah Carey, I mean, her voice is pretty exceptional. And when she first came out, that was just like a "can you believe this voice?"
[00:01:37] Kaykay: Right.
[00:01:37] Brooke: This was her big month in August 1990. And then also on the charts this month, right behind "Vision of Love" at number two was SNAP!'s "The Power."
[00:01:48] Kaykay: Oh, yeah. Classic. "Cause I will attack, and you don't want that!" That's like in my head probably twice a week.
[00:01:56] Brooke: At least, yeah. "So chill. Stay off my back!" That part. Yeah. I just saw this actually, it was so funny. There was a tweet this morning where somebody said about how like dance songs in the nineties, it's just like you have a woman doing like magic tricks with her voice, and then out of nowhere, you've just got some bald jacked dude who comes in and just spitting nonsense on the mic. Just the worst rap you've ever heard in your life. That's a nineties dance song, and this fits the bill.
[00:02:22] Kaykay: That really says something about, you know, the genders and expectations. What women are expected to bring to the table, what men can bring to the table.
[00:02:31] Brooke: Truth.
[00:02:32] Kaykay: You know, Woman needs to have some beautiful artistry, and Man, just come in and talk about who he's going to punch and how, you know?
[00:02:38] Brooke: And how you don't want that. You don't want that. He doesn't even have to try, you know. He doesn't have to come up with like a creative turn of phrase. Doesn't have to have any sort of like technical vocal skills, just be loud and threatening.
[00:02:53] Kaykay: Threatening.
[00:02:54] Brooke: "I got the power!" There you go. "It's getting, it's getting, it's getting kinda uhh-uh." So I went back and was playing it again. And I'm like, the song itself? The song itself would be 10 times better without that. Without the guy part.
[00:03:07] Kaykay: Yeah, it's a great song. It surpasses even, you know, the jacked dude.
[00:03:11] Brooke: Yeah. The musicality of it, like it's really creative from like compositional standpoint. It's interesting how it like brings different genres together and everything. But what you remember is like the worst part of the song.
[00:03:23] Kaykay: Exactly.
[00:03:23] Brooke: Anyways, that'll be on the playlist.
[00:03:25] Kaykay: I am doing the running man in my head right now.
[00:03:29] Brooke: I wish you were doing the running man on camera.
[00:03:31] Kaykay: Mama's got a bad knee.
[00:03:33] Brooke: Oh man. The difference between August 1990 and today, right?
[00:03:41] Kaykay: One bad knee later, I'm not doing the running man. Let me tell you, back in the nineties, oh, I did a mean running man. Get the fuck out the way! I will attack and you don't want that!
[00:03:53] Brooke: You're going to attack with your running man.
[00:03:55] Kaykay: That's exactly what I mean, dance battles.
[00:03:58] Brooke: Oh, well that gives me a nice image that's going to stay in my head and pop up at random times, and I want to thank you for that, Kaykay. I love that.
[00:04:06] Kaykay: You got it.
[00:04:06] Brooke: Just you doing the running man to SNAP!'s "The Power" in the middle of a wedding. And I just see everybody in a circle around you because they're scared.
[00:04:14] Kaykay: That's happened!
[00:04:15] Brooke: You're going to attack.
[00:04:16] Kaykay: It's definitely happened.
[00:04:17] Brooke: They don't want that.
[00:04:18] Kaykay: Correct.
[00:04:19] Brooke: You do have the power. You do. And then also on the charts that month, "Banned in the USA" by 2 Live Crew hit number 20. So their song that was about the whole lawsuit that they were going through and everything. It's a take on "Born in the USA," they sample it, they take the whole musical structure of it. Bruce Springsteen was like, "Absolutely, go for it." It had Bruce Springsteen's blessing all the way. So that is also on the playlist, as is the video for that, which does some courtroom reenactments, which I found delightful.
[00:04:54] Kaykay: Ooh, I gotta rewatch that.
[00:04:56] Brooke: Yeah, it's a good one. At the movies, there's a different number one each week of August 1990, and it was all about fear of death and like supernatural horror.
[00:05:08] Kaykay: Whoa. Fitting, from our last episode.
[00:05:12] Brooke: Seriously. So Ghost was number one again, and then that was followed by Flatliners.
[00:05:19] Kaykay: Oh, I loved that movie. I just thought it was so cool and trippy.
[00:05:22] Brooke: Did you watch it on HBO?
[00:05:23] Kaykay: Yes, all the time. Exactly, it was totally an HBO special.
[00:05:27] Brooke: So this was one that you have fond recollection of, Flatliners?
[00:05:30] Kaykay: Very fond. And for anyone who hasn't seen it, it's basically medical students decide to start experimenting with allowing each other to die and bringing them back to life, to kind of see what's on the other side.
[00:05:41] Brooke: Mm hmm. Trying to figure out like the thing that feels the most unknown, right? Trying to get some sort of insight into it, the most mysterious thing.
[00:05:50] Kaykay: Yeah, and also, I'm just so curious. I am a strange person that totally feels like death is going to be lit. I'm so psyched for it.
[00:06:00] Brooke: You're doing the running man in your house.
[00:06:04] Kaykay: I just feel like it's going to be lit. I don't know why I feel that, I know that. I'm not religious, but it's just a feeling I've always had.
[00:06:12] Brooke: Well, that's nice. That's nice!
[00:06:14] Kaykay: Good for you!
[00:06:15] Brooke: Good for you! Yeah. No, I mean, it's better than the alternative, right? The sort of dichotomy between "has a great fear of what will happen after death" and then like either "thinks it's going to be lit" or "thinks it's not going to matter and it's not worth worrying about anyway." Like, I think there's a huge divide between those two camps, the fear and the no fear camp. And I think a lot of the pain that we see in the world comes from the fear camp, you know?
[00:06:46] Kaykay: Yeah. I mean, certainly as a therapist, existential dread is there for everyone. And it's like, how much do you look at it? How much do you not? But it's operating for all of us. There's no question about it.
[00:06:59] Brooke: Yeah. Cause deep down, none of us know how we got here. We all just kind of like woke up one day, we're like, what the hell is going on? We just landed on this rock out of the blue. Nobody asked us. Like, who even are we? What the fuck? And every day is just trying to figure that out. And there's a lot of confusion that goes along with that, and how people work that out or don't work that out manifests in our daily existence.
[00:07:25] Kaykay: Yes. And somebody said to me once, which was very interesting, if you're lucky and you sort of die later in life of natural causes, you know, there is a point at which your body is ready to die.
[00:07:39] Brooke: Oh yeah.
[00:07:39] Kaykay: And so part of the fear of death is that we're contemplating it with the current mind and body that we have, which is not ready. The body's like, "No! We like life!" But it is a process like birth, right? And birth is a process that has an end. But you couldn't give birth in month one, you couldn't give birth in month two. You gotta wait till month nine, or it's going to be very hard and painful.
And I think about death the same way, that if we're all lucky enough and we do get to have a natural life and die at the end of that, I think it does go through that same arc where like you're ready.
[00:08:12] Brooke: Yeah, hopefully. That's something that we should all hope for. That's the best situation.
[00:08:17] Kaykay: Well, they didn't get it in Flatliners. That is for sure. Did you like Flatliners?
[00:08:21] Brooke: I never watched it. Because again, it's like, I feel like there's this whole sub genre of movies that should just be, we should just call them HBO movies.
[00:08:30] Kaykay: That would be a phenomenal podcast. Just call it I Love My HBO Childhood.
[00:08:35] Brooke: Right.
[00:08:35] Kaykay: That's what the podcast is called.
[00:08:36] Brooke: Yeah. So for me, it's like, I saw movies that were on like TBS, WGN, you know, like your basic cable movies. The movies that were found on HBO were generally out of my reach unless they were on when I was at a friend's house. And so I'd have to watch what the friends wanted to watch, and believe me, none of my friends were interested in watching Flatliners.
[00:09:00] Kaykay: You didn't know Kaykay yet.
[00:09:02] Brooke: No, I didn't. I did see Howard the Duck.
[00:09:04] Kaykay: Oh, I love that too! I watched that every day too.
[00:09:07] Brooke: Yeah. So that was the kind of thing that we would end up watching. No Flatliners experience for me. Also, no experience with The Exorcist III, which was the next number one.
[00:09:17] Kaykay: Piece of shit. Absolute piece of shit.
[00:09:20] Brooke: Like, there was an Exorcist II? As well? I guess? Okay. I didn't know that either, so...
[00:09:25] Kaykay: Also a piece of shit.
[00:09:26] Brooke: There you go, right there. So it's like, you have The Exorcist Trilogy that nobody knows is a trilogy because unlike The Godfather, where only one movie in the trilogy was a piece of shit, two movies in this trilogy is a piece of shit, so you just talk about this as a singular occurrence.
[00:09:43] Kaykay: Yeah, it's not worth trying II and III. If you're interested in The Exorcist, just do I. That's the classic, that's all you need.
[00:09:49] Brooke: And then Darkman, which was a Liam Neeson movie about like horror. I don't remember it. I thought it was, I thought it was Duckman at first. And I got really excited cause I was like, Duckman...
[00:10:01] Kaykay: This is Howard the Duck II?
[00:10:03] Brooke: Well, no, Duckman was a TV show. It was an animated TV show that I freaking loved. It was one of those like, first that I can think of where it's like, okay, The Simpsons is showing there's an appetite for adult animation, we're going to make a TV show that is explicitly just for adults. Like, there's no Bart Simpson kind of character bringing kids.
[00:10:24] Kaykay: Yeah, they're not even trying to, attempting to split the difference.
[00:10:27] Brooke: No, and it's going to be on at like 11 o'clock at night, just to really drive that home.
[00:10:31] Kaykay: Yeah, and this is before like Adult Swim.
[00:10:33] Brooke: Yeah. So I'm like, oh, so this is for like 12 year old me then. Thank you. So I got real excited thinking Darkman was Duckman, but it wasn't. It was Darkman, and I don't care. But anyway, it was number one.
On TV, a lot of the new shows were still premiering in September. Some of the shows would come out in August. The only new TV show that came out that month that I remember watching, and I remember being very excited about, and then being like, this is a hot piece of garbage. It was a Ferris Bueller TV show. Do you remember this?
[00:11:02] Kaykay: Oh, mama. No.
[00:11:04] Brooke: Oh yeah.
[00:11:04] Kaykay: I don't remember it, but I could tell you right now, you're really playing with fire here.
[00:11:08] Brooke: It was bad. It was bad. So the whole premise behind it, I don't know if you've heard about the new movie Lightyear, it's like Buzz Lightyear from Toy Story, but how it's a movie about the person who inspired the character of Buzz Lightyear. It's like that in the TV show, where they say, this is a TV show about the real Ferris Bueller who inspired the movie Ferris Bueller.
However, there is a very fatal flaw in this, in that this movie came out four years earlier. And they say it's a 16 year old kid and he's like, "This wasn't me. This is bad." Like it has him actually decapitating a cardboard cutout of Matthew Broderick as Ferris Bueller with a chainsaw.
[00:11:56] Kaykay: I don't understand.
[00:11:58] Brooke: That's how this show starts. Because he's way cooler than Matthew Broderick. And it's like, so you were 12. They made a movie about you when you were 12. The math doesn't add up, is what I'm saying.
[00:12:11] Kaykay: It sounds like when you have a weird dream about a TV show, that's what it sounds like.
[00:12:15] Brooke: They like moved it from Chicago to Santa Monica.
[00:12:18] Kaykay: What?
[00:12:19] Brooke: Yeah. Suffice it to say John Hughes was like, "I have nothing to do with this piece of shit."
[00:12:23] Kaykay: Not on board.
[00:12:24] Brooke: Not on board whatsoever. And Jennifer Aniston played Jeannie, his sister. Yeah. When Friends came out, I was like, oh Jennifer Aniston, I know her from Ferris Bueller and Leprechaun because she was in Leprechaun. Leprechaun! Yeah. So I was like, oh yeah, I know her, I know her.
[00:12:45] Kaykay: I really like Jennifer Aniston in Office Space. I feel like that's the first place where I really was like, oh, she's dope.
[00:12:50] Brooke: She was saddled with this piece of shit in her early career.
[00:12:53] Kaykay: Well, you know, she's trying to break in, get your paper, girl. I can't blame that.
[00:12:58] Brooke: Yep. So that's what was out in August 1990.
[00:13:01] Kaykay: An interesting mish-mash.
[00:13:03] Brooke: A very bizarre mish-mash. I know, I'm going through and I'm looking for patterns and stuff, and I'm like, well, there's definitely patterns in the movies, but then everything else it's like you threw in stuff from 1990, threw it into a Yahtzee thing and shook it and then just dumped out and whatever came out, here you go. Here's a Ferris Bueller TV show. Here's a bunch of like movies that are about fears of death. Here's 2 Live Crew and Mariah Carey. What do you want?
[00:13:28] Kaykay: It's the 90s psyche. There you go.
[00:13:30] Brooke: I will attack, and you don't want that.
[00:13:31] Kaykay: I will attack. You don't want that.
[00:13:33] Brooke: Yeah, if you challenge me on August 1990 making any sort of sense. But I think we got a book, at least, that gave us something to build from. So the 36th Baby-sitters Club book, Jessi's Baby-sitter, was released. It's time for some back cover copy, and I quote, "Jessi can't believe it. Her dreaded Aunt Cecelia is moving in to take care of Jessi and her brother and her sister. How humiliating! Jessi's going to have a babysitter!
Plus, Aunt Cecelia is a drill sergeant. She tells Jessi when to go to bed, how to wear her hair, and she even forbids her to go to a Baby-sitter's Club meeting. Jessi knows she's old enough to take care of herself, but how can she tell Aunt Cecelia that?" End quote.
So Kaykay, you were excited about this book because you're like, all right, it's going to be all about family systems, right in your wheelhouse. What did you think about this book? What would your advice be to the Ramsey family?
[00:14:32] Kaykay: Well, they kind of got where they needed to be in the end. Okay, so we have in this book, the aunt coming in and disrupting the family system. And she's coming in with very, very rigid boundaries. Really, really intense rules and boundaries. She's not listening to the kids. She's not communicating with the kids. They have no freedom, right? And they have no ability to do things on their own. And nobody's really talking about it.
And then by the end of the book, Jessi sort of finds it in herself to communicate with her parents what's happening and that it's not working for her. And they all kind of come together. They state their insecurities and their vulnerabilities. They communicate about that, which allows them to sort of see why they're being rigid or why Aunt Cecelia's being rigid. And then they're able to find this place of like compromise.
So it's actually a beautiful. It feels very old school Baby-sitters Club, where there's a lot of process, right? There's not just plot. Mostly it's about the characters' inner experiences, and inner experiences that have an arc that goes somewhere and gets somewhere very helpful. And yeah, in the end, they're in a super good space.
So I thought it was a really cool book, very sort of illustrative of how people can work in family systems and get really rigid and bogged down in their own insecurity. So, yeah, I really enjoyed this one. How about you?
[00:15:53] Brooke: Yeah, I thought it was interesting how, as you're talking, I'm thinking about how Jessi speaks up. And there's a time earlier in the book where she speaks up and she speaks directly to Aunt Cecelia. So she's trying to advocate, you know, saying, this is what I do. Like, these are the rules that we have for our family, I'm just going according to our rules. And Aunt Cecelia is very much like, well, these are my rules now, right?
[00:16:16] Kaykay: Yeah.
[00:16:17] Brooke: So we see Jessi try to advocate for herself directly to Aunt Cecelia and it doesn't go anywhere. And you're right, it's when she goes to her parents and she's like, "Okay, you guys have to handle this for me," basically, you know, that it works. And it seems like a flip of what we've seen a lot of times in these books where it's like the girls have to learn to speak up for themselves directly to the person that is impacting them. And it's interesting how we see Jessi do that pretty quickly.
[00:16:50] Kaykay: Yeah, with not a lot of problem. It's kind of easier for her, it seems.
[00:16:54] Brooke: Yeah. Although it's also mixed in with like putting shaving cream in her shoes and just like tormenting her as well.
[00:17:00] Kaykay: Short sheeting the bed.
[00:17:01] Brooke: Right. So she's like, I'm doing pranks on her, but I'm also trying to speak to her. And neither work. And what does work is then her being like, I need to have like an actual intervention by an authority figure to help me out here. Because at the end of the day, like she is still a child, so for her to have her parents be willing to back her up and do what needs to be done in order to make everybody happy, or at least understanding of each other. So it's interesting that it's like she needs to actually loop in an intermediary as opposed to being direct, that that's what works.
[00:17:39] Kaykay: And it's also, now that you're talking, it's making me realize it's one of the only examples we see of looping in the parents makes things truly better. You see in a lot of these books that, you know, it's going to get worse. Parents are just going to fuck it up. And here we see parents actually are the thing that's needed to kind of bridge the gap between the two of them.
So I thought that was really interesting. And it also points to the fact that, you know, this was a systemic problem, not just a two person interpersonal problem, right? This is not some sort of conflict between two personalities. This is a family system that's changing and needs to do it more thoughtfully.
[00:18:19] Brooke: Yeah, it made me wonder what it says about Jessi's aunt and her dad, like their system, their dynamic, their relationship. We know that Aunt Cecelia is Jessi's dad's older sister. We know that she is staying with them after Jessi's parents left her for three days, uh, to care for everything.
[00:18:44] Kaykay: After the CPS reportable incident.
[00:18:46] Brooke: Yeah, no kidding. So is this a matter of her being like, okay, my little brother doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, and so I need to come in...
[00:18:57] Kaykay: Yet again, my little brother fucking it up.
[00:18:59] Brooke: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And we know that like, she must be significantly older too, because they don't go into this very much at all, there's obviously other things going on for Aunt Cecelia. Aunt Cecelia has gone through some significant changes. Like, her husband died!
[00:19:16] Kaykay: Yeah, she lost her spouse.
[00:19:17] Brooke: Yeah. And that's just mentioned as a, "Here's why she's in Connecticut anyway." There isn't anything about, well, how is she, is she just like trying to cope, you know, with so many changes in her situation and feeling like she's got no control over things, as you often will feel after you lose somebody close to you.
And then we also know that she says this too, just like, "I've already raised children," so they must be grown. So, you know, she's gone through some significant life changes. And again, if she's old enough to where she's got children that are adults and are out on their own, Jessi's family, you know, she's the oldest at 11, and she's got like a one and a half year old, there's likely a fairly significant age gap between the brother and the sister.
Kind of like there would be for Jessi, right? Jessi and Squirt are a good 10 years apart.
[00:20:15] Kaykay: Ooh, good uh, good parallel.
[00:20:17] Brooke: Yeah. And she's his caretaker, his babysitter. It's almost like Aunt Cecelia's coming in and babysitting Jessi's dad, and the kids are kind of the fallout of that. Like, she's like babysitting by proxy, you know? Taking out her frustrations on Jessi's dad by proxy.
[00:20:36] Kaykay: Yeah. Really good analysis. And you also touch on, you know, some of the generational conflicts we see happening. Because it's very clear through the book that Jessi's aunt, just the things that are coming out of her mouth are very sort of 1950s, 1960s womanhood type rules and regulations, and, you know, children should be seen and not heard, you know, just that kind of vibe.
I think it speaks to the fact that, okay, so there's strengthen in wisdom of elders. And there's also strength in younger people, and new ideas and evolution of relationship concepts. And sometimes you get stuck in these patterns with other people that block you from seeing the wisdom of youth, right? Because you're like, "oh, that's just my idiot little brother" or whatever.
Or "this is my child," right? My child doesn't know anything and could never teach me anything. You get into this pattern of being the one in the know all the time, being the boss all the time. And so the book does a good job of showing, no, actually, you know, family relationships and dynamics are shifting as the culture shifts.
And there's a lot of good stuff happening in there. And Aunt Cecelia can't see it because she's so rigidly stuck in old ways of being, old systems. And this is actually an opportunity for her. I mean, what a family therapist would say is this is an opportunity for her to learn herself, and that's the key to, you know, managing aging in a healthy way too, is to always be evolving. Always be learning and changing, even as you're getting onto like older periods of life.
[00:22:17] Brooke: Yeah. Not like a, There is one way to do things. There's one way to be. And the goal of continued existence is to hold on to that one way to be, despite whatever gets thrown at it. That's not a way to be healthy and evolve and grow.
It's more of a, How do you adapt to changing circumstances and how do you adapt to changing information and changing norms? Can you go with it? Can you learn? Do you see that as something, as you said, as an opportunity, as opposed to a threat, something to fear, something to fight back against?
[00:22:56] Kaykay: Yes. And all the research supports this, that one of the key things about healthy aging is can you always have sort of a change mindset and a growth mindset. It almost becomes more important as you get older.
And even when you're younger, I think we all know folks that, you know, hold on rigidly to kind of old patterns. And we can see how much suffering it causes for people who are like, Why is the world changing? You know, like it's supposed to look this way, and it's just a very difficult way to live.
[00:23:28] Brooke: Yeah. There was something about a certain time that imprinted on people. And when they're like, this is the world as it should be, and any deviation from that is the world as it shouldn't be. When the fact of the matter is, everything is always transitory. And that one period of time that imprinted on you was also a fleeting moment, just as everything else is.
[00:23:50] Kaykay: I can't remember where I read this, but the concept really stuck with me, which is people assume that previous times were better often because they were younger and their bodies were better, right? Like, they felt better. The world felt very positive and hopeful. Some of that is just developmentally appropriate for being younger.
And so what imprints is this idea of the way that it was was better, when in fact, part of what's happening is like your body's in decline, your mind is in decline, and that's sad and that's hard.
[00:24:23] Brooke: Yeah. It's like your world, so much of the world is wrapped up in you and your body and the things that you can physically see around you. You're not actually in touch with like, The World, capital T capital W.
[00:24:37] Kaykay: Dude, yes. I mean, we could go so deep. Are we living in a simulation? We may be.
[00:24:46] Brooke: Oh man. Yeah. I think that's what you see is ultimately where they're able to like come together is it's like, Hey, this may not have been the way that you raise your kids, but this is the way that we're raising our kids. Just because it's different from what you did doesn't mean that it's bad. Like, "different" doesn't equal "bad." "Bad" equals "bad."
You have to be able to evaluate things on their own merits and not on their degree of familiarity to you. That's a huge U.S. cultural problem that we have. But then there's also something that I thought was actually really, really, really good that came up at the end, when they were coming through this resolution.
I don't know if you notice this, I'm sure you noticed this. Aunt Cecelia justifies herself, well not justifies, but sort of explains where she's coming from, by saying that black people have to work twice as hard to prove themselves in this nation. So that's where she's coming from. Like, I'm trying to protect you because you are going to have it so much harder than the other kids that you see.
And like, I want to steel you for that basically. You know, it kind of makes me wonder about that moment where she said you can't take your brother for a walk, it's too cloudy outside. If it's a matter of like fear of what it's like to be caring for black children in a majority white, and as we've seen really quite hostile, community.
[00:26:25] Kaykay: Super valid.
[00:26:26] Brooke: That comes up at the end, which I thought was great that that was acknowledged. The part that I thought was not so great is that Jessi immediately follows it with, you know, that's a lot like the pressure that Jackie Rodowsky must feel going through this world as a klutz, as a white male klutz. It's the same thing! It's the same.
[00:26:46] Kaykay: Dang. You know? Yeah, I clocked exactly the same. I thought that was a really cool concept, and really kind of ahead of its time too, for Ann M. And one of those moments where I thought, yeah, that's a real truth. And maybe not a truth that white people were prepared to take in at that time period. Right? Because of this desire to believe, you know, everybody's on this equal playing field and my struggles is as hard as yours.
[00:27:16] Brooke: The Cosby Show's number one. It's fine. Racism is solved.
[00:27:20] Kaykay: Right. Yeah, it's over.
[00:27:20] Brooke: I mean, see, you can be a rich doctor and a rich lawyer. So it's fine.
[00:27:26] Kaykay: Yeah, exactly. So I thought it was really great and I almost wish it had come out earlier, you know, or like I wish I had the time to go back and read the book through that lens. Because it just was really powerful and a powerful example of the way that lived experience can really impact, in super valid ways, the way that you see and move through the world.
You know, this is why understanding is so important. And this is why communication is so important. Because there's so much valid stuff coming from folks that have lived other lives. And if Aunt Cecelia is significantly older, the amount of racism she would have experienced would have been probably even higher than Jessi, and more overt. And who knows what the family history is.
So, yeah, I thought that was really cool. And then I also thought, ah, man, you got to equate that to a klutz? I don't know about that.
[00:28:23] Brooke: Yeah. Could have done without that. But I think it was trying to show Jessi sort of justifying the reason why she was being so controlling with Jackie.
It's funny, this isn't mentioned at all in the back cover copy, the bulk of the book, like the emotional weight of the book, is on the changes going on in Jessi's household. But the action of the book is all about the science fair that isn't mentioned at all in the back cover copy.
[00:28:54] Kaykay: Yeah, good point.
[00:28:56] Brooke: That I actually got really fucking excited about when I read it, because it brought back a memory to me where I did Charlotte Johanssen's experiment in this book.
[00:29:09] Kaykay: Wait. You know what, the first thing I thought of when I was reading about this experiment, I thought this is something Brooke would do.
[00:29:17] Brooke: I literally did it. I did it, yes. So the plot that we're talking about is there is a science fair at Stoneybrook Elementary School. The kids get extra credit if they participate. It starts with Jackie wants to participate and Jessi helps Jackie. Mallory's sister Margo wants to participate and so Mallory helps Margot. Kristy helps David Michael, and then Stacey kind of helps, but more is just sort of like an observer, with Charlotte Johanssen.
She points out there's some fun stuff in there that Stacey sort of like educates her on the scientific method and like experimental design that I got a little bit geeked out about, but they are all coming up with their own projects and trying to figure out what they want to examine, and so you see how the sitters help them.
Jessi basically does Jackie's project for him. Jessi sort of mirrors the rigidity and the control of Aunt Cecelia with Jackie and quote unquote "helping" him with his project. And like, it has to be to perfection, which brings me back a little bit to the end there, right? Where it's like Aunt Cecelia being like, it has to be twice as good to be considered as good as a white kid's stuff. And Jessi thinking like, oh, that's why I was so, not so much of a, oh, was I trying to prove my own worth through Jackie here? Or is it a matter of like, well, I know that I really needed to support him because he's a klutz.
But the project that Charlotte Johannsen does is she plays music for her different plants. So she like plants lima beans seeds in three different jars, and then she has basically like the control group. They're all in the same window sill, and they all get the same amount of light. The only difference is one of the jars she takes up to her room and plays classical music for a half hour to it, and then she goes and puts it back. And then she takes another jar and takes it back to her room and plays rock music to it, and then takes it back. And I got real excited when she was like, "Jar Number Two was listening to Duran Duran."
[00:31:28] Kaykay: She should've given Jar Number Three SNAP!'s "I Got the Power."
[00:31:32] Brooke: I know!
[00:31:33] Kaykay: Then it would have been like an Audrey II Little Shop of Horrors situation.
[00:31:38] Brooke: It like devours Jackie's volcano.
[00:31:42] Kaykay: And Jackie.
[00:31:44] Brooke: It gets taken out by the-
[00:31:46] Kaykay: Giant flesh eating plant that's created by playing it SNAP!
[00:31:52] Brooke: Ah, it's getting kind of hectic. Yeah, so when I had like a year later, I remember this in fifth grade, we had to do a science project. I was like, Charlotte Johanssen's project sounded cool. I'll do that, so...
[00:32:05] Kaykay: Oh, you were inspired by the book.
[00:32:08] Brooke: No, I like ripped off the book. I like just opened-
[00:32:11] Kaykay: I thought this is like independent.
[00:32:13] Brooke: No. Oh God, no. I was like, I need to do something.
[00:32:18] Kaykay: That's even better.
[00:32:19] Brooke: Charlotte Johanssen's sounded kind of cool. She played Duran Duran to some lima beans.
[00:32:23] Kaykay: Oh, it's dope! I was like, I hated science. If I had done stuff like this, I probably would not have hated science.
[00:32:29] Brooke: This is the thing. The way that we were taught science, just like the way that we were taught history, just like the way that we were taught math, it was like, let's find a way to take all of the joy and fun out of learning these things that are actually, like science is really fucking cool. When you just focus on like the experiment, when it's just like figuring out how things work, that's science.
Just pick a thing that you want to figure out how it works and dig into it. That's science! You do have in colleges now, it's called inquiry-based learning. And so you will get courses where the students actually design their own project, and so they just learn throughout. Like all of the content that they learn is for the benefit of applying to that project.
[00:33:12] Kaykay: It's beautiful. You learn how to think.
[00:33:14] Brooke: Yeah!
[00:33:14] Kaykay: And you learn how to be interested and engaged and motivated.
[00:33:18] Brooke: Yeah, follow your curiosity, you know? See where that goes. And it empowers you. You've got the power. Um, this is absolutely, even though "Vision of Love" was number one, "I Got the Power" is going to be definitely the very first song, you know...
[00:33:38] Kaykay: It's number one in our hearts. Let's be honest.
[00:33:40] Brooke: For real.
[00:33:41] Kaykay: So I gotta know, how did your experiment, how was it received?
[00:33:45] Brooke: Oh. Huh huh. So get this shit, Kaykay. I had everything all set up in my classroom. And one day my mortal enemy in class, a kid who was a total dickbag to me growing up, trashed my project.
[00:34:04] Kaykay: A kid trashed your project?
[00:34:06] Brooke: Mm hmm.
[00:34:07] Kaykay: What a psychopath.
[00:34:08] Brooke: So that's how that went.
[00:34:09] Kaykay: Was there any consequences?
[00:34:11] Brooke: I don't know exactly. What I just remember, I was like, oh my God. And he got pulled aside by the teacher and there was like, this is when they did like conflict management. They tried like restorative justice at my elementary and middle school before ever like really became a thing.
[00:34:28] Kaykay: Wow.
[00:34:29] Brooke: Or so it was like, they would pick kids to be like conflict managers. And so like kids would resolve conflict between kids, but it didn't work because the popular kids get it. And who are the popular kids? The popular kids are often the biggest assholes at school.
[00:34:43] Kaykay: Sure.
[00:34:44] Brooke: You know, anyways.
[00:34:45] Kaykay: He must've not been a klutz to have that kind of privilege. God forbid, had he been a klutz.
[00:34:50] Brooke: The excuse was that he thought my experiment was stupid and it was dumb.
[00:34:54] Kaykay: Aka jealous.
[00:34:56] Brooke: Yeah. And I was like, my experiment is awesome. So I don't remember exactly how it all happened, but that's how it ended.
[00:35:05] Kaykay: Well in the world of The Baby-sitters Club that would have meant that he wanted to date you.
[00:35:08] Brooke: Ugh, Alan Gray bullshit.
[00:35:11] Kaykay: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
[00:35:12] Brooke: Gross.
[00:35:12] Kaykay: That was an Alan Gray move.
[00:35:13] Brooke: Yeah, no, that was just boys can be assholes and get away with it because it's expected of them according to American gender norms.
[00:35:22] Kaykay: Well, I'm sorry, my friend, I think your experiment was and would have been amazing.
[00:35:27] Brooke: Thank you. It's all inspired by Ann M. Thanks, Ann M. I got credit for it, so that was fine.
[00:35:34] Kaykay: Great. Plus you got to play music to plants.
[00:35:38] Brooke: Yeah, I know. Great. Did you ever do like any science fairs, or I can imagine that like your school probably had, what did you guys like go out into the ocean and do like marine biology, biological research on a yacht owned by like one of the biggest donors or something?
[00:35:56] Kaykay: No, I, you know, we just, uh, private schools, they don't do science fairs. I don't know why, but like-
[00:36:02] Brooke: Too busy learning hedge fund management?
[00:36:05] Kaykay: Yeah. Actually one time the president of JP Morgan, his daughter was in my class. And so we went to the stock exchange and we got to ring the bell and we got like a hundred shares of JP Morgan stock, all of us. So no science fair, but we did do shit like that.
[00:36:20] Brooke: You got stock.
[00:36:22] Kaykay: Yeah.
[00:36:22] Brooke: You got stock.
[00:36:25] Kaykay: Maybe it wasn't a hundred shares, or maybe it was like five shares, but it was just something to like-
[00:36:29] Brooke: It was a share.
[00:36:32] Kaykay: It was more than zero. And we got to like hang out and we got to ring the bell. We got to like, hang out on the floor and stuff.
[00:36:40] Brooke: Yeah. America is a meritocracy. America is a meritocracy, uh! Fucking hell. Oh my God. Um, I blacked out for a second, but I'm back. I'm back. Um, that's nice.
[00:36:58] Kaykay: Brooke's experiencing temporary blindness.
[00:37:02] Brooke: That's nice. Instead of building a papier-mache volcano, you got to go to the stock exchange and get stock.
[00:37:10] Kaykay: Seriously. It's like, you know, Chutes and Ladders. It's like, you know, the science fair is just one little ladder that takes you to the next level. Stock exchange is like, you just go to the end of the game.
[00:37:21] Brooke: Yeah. We, we all take different paths, don't we? We take very different paths. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. Oh, I am just thinking about how delightful it would be to do like an exchange with like, Ja'ime, Private School Girl, you know, do an exchange where like JP Morgan's daughter comes to my school.
And then she gets to out in the cherry picker.
I was gonna say, she gets to spend her summer not getting stock from daddy on the stock exchange, but like pulling tassels off of corn at like 5:30 in the morning, getting one bathroom break a day. I'm telling you.
[00:38:06] Kaykay: It's a good exchange.
[00:38:07] Brooke: We need a exchange for rich kids. Not like A Simple Life kind of exchange where it's like, ahahaha, but like, no, you're doing this real thing. Oh, and if you're lucky, keep working hard, and when you turn 16, you can go be a telemarketer, you know.
[00:38:25] Kaykay: Dream big.
[00:38:26] Brooke: You get to sit inside. You get to sit inside and there's air conditioning, you know? So that's what you get to aspire to. Oh, wow.
[00:38:36] Kaykay: So, yeah, I, you know, so I didn't have a lot of science fair experience, but I do remember being young and, you know, doing a volcano and also trying to do the planet diorama. I feel like those are the meat and potatoes of a science fair, or at least in the 90s.
[00:38:51] Brooke: Yeah. Kristy works with David Michael on making the solar system mobile. Yeah. Very hands on. It was cute when Jackie described just making random shit with papier-mache as the best day of his life.
[00:39:07] Kaykay: Yes. It's dirty. It's messy. It's creative. Heck yes.
[00:39:10] Brooke: Yeah.
[00:39:11] Kaykay: Bring it on. And uh, yeah, that's the magic of being bored too, in the 90s, without screens all the time, right? You had to do stupid shit like that.
[00:39:20] Brooke: Mm hmm. Make your own fun, for sure. Yeah. Cause we see Jessi take Jackie to the library to do, I had that down as like a 90s moment, Jackie's like, I want to do this. I want to make a volcano. And so Jessi's like, let's go to the library, let's look up books about volcanoes and making volcanoes, and that's what they do. And then she finds basically a recipe for how to make a volcano, but it's very elaborate.
[00:39:50] Kaykay: It's complicated.
[00:39:52] Brooke: Very complicated.
[00:39:53] Kaykay: It's just like baking powder and vinegar or something.
[00:39:56] Brooke: Yeah, but she's like, you have to build a glass box. You have to build a glass box?
[00:39:59] Kaykay: Yeah, because they were using like real chemicals. It was like a real explosion.
[00:40:04] Brooke: Right, there's ash.
[00:40:05] Kaykay: Not just the old tried and true.
[00:40:07] Brooke: I know. I know. So she gets real serious. And again, that goes back to the whole have to be twice as good, right? Just like has to be perfection. We see her at the very beginning of the book at ballet practice. Practice, practice everything. You have to get it exactly right to get the respect you want.
[00:40:27] Kaykay: Good point. And it's interesting we've never heard this concept through Jessi's eyes in ballet, even though you imagine she's got to be experiencing that. It is surprising that rather than the connection that was made with Jackie being in klutz, a really natural connection could have been like, oh shit, maybe I'm feeling that in ballet.
[00:40:46] Brooke: I mean, you get kind of a little taste of that in the way that she's treated at ballet in Jessi's secret language, but it's not made as explicit as it is by Aunt Cecelia at the end of this book.
[00:41:01] Kaykay: Yeah. And I guess I also mean that internalized experience, realizing that you've now internalized this and it's become part of your method of moving through the world. Knowing that is a huge level of insight about yourself that Cecelia really has, and we haven't seen explicitly connected in Jessi's mind.
[00:41:22] Brooke: Yeah. So I think that that's something that they're definitely like, you see just like Jessi pushes back against Cecelia, Jackie pushing back against Jessi too in his own way. Like, not as overtly hostile as Jessi and her sister are. You know, Jessi is both trying to advocate for herself, but then also pulling pranks. You don't see Jackie pull pranks on Jessi, but you do see him say like, I just want to have fun. You know, like I'm not doing this to like really win an award or anything.
[00:41:54] Kaykay: Yeah, and you see him get de-motivated, I would say, mostly.
[00:41:59] Brooke: Yeah.
[00:42:00] Kaykay: Right? So mostly you just see like a deflation and like a disengagement in the process, which shows that Ann M is a teacher. She knows very well that if you get too far over your skis in terms of doing it for the kids, you lose them.
[00:42:14] Brooke: Right.
[00:42:15] Kaykay: They don't want it done for them.
[00:42:17] Brooke: Yeah. I mean, that's what I ultimately had for like what they were fighting, and I think you see this in both Jessi and in Aunt Cecelia, it's this feeling of needing to sort of prove their value. Like how Aunt Cecelia is like, I want to make sure that I'm actually like really making an impact in this house that you need me.
I need to be needed. Right? Without overcoming the agency of others, you know, with making sure that other people still have the right to like make mistakes and learn and to like forge their own path. I think that's what they were really fighting is like the balance between support and control, finding what that proper balance is.
Ultimately they get there at the end, you know, with being honest, giving up some control, or at least the impression of control, and like more humility and vulnerability. And a thing that I thought was really good at the end is you see, you know, Jessi talking about "for Aunt Cecelia to be there to care about me, not for me."
It's like, you're still caring for somebody, but not smothering them. "Care" as in like, I want what's best for them, and they are actually the ones who know what they want. So how can I help the person live out the life that they want to be living? As opposed to, how can I force them to live the life that I see as best for them? Finding that balance.
[00:43:48] Kaykay: Very, very beautifully put. And I think it relates to another theme that just comes again and again in this book, which is trust, right? This idea of caring about someone versus for someone. Caring about them expresses a lot of trust in their process and their abilities. Caring for them can express to people that you don't think that they're capable, which is very de-motivating.
So not only is it trusting the other person, and even more important, it's trusting yourself, right? Because part of the reason why that rigid control is coming up is because of internal insecurity. And the internal insecurities are sort of like, I'm not enough, I can't do this. So in fact, you have to trust them and you have to trust yourself and you have to trust the process.
So to me, you know, that was the biggest theme and it was explicitly called out many, many times. Like, you don't trust me Aunt Cecelia, I need to feel trusted. And I thought that was right on.
[00:44:46] Brooke: Yeah. And that Jackie feels the same way.
[00:44:49] Kaykay: Right. And then I had similar things to what they were fighting. I said control, and then I also said insecurities, which is just kind of, I think, another way to summarize what you were saying. Because once you see those insecurities shared and the vulnerability brought to the table, rather than that kind of closed, like hiding it, all of a sudden there's a relaxing of the rigidness and the control and much more cooperation and communication. It can't happen if the insecurities aren't addressed, or at least given a safe space to be looked at together and held together.
[00:45:26] Brooke: Yeah. And as I'm thinking about the insecurities, I'm thinking, gosh, there's so many insecurities that come up for different characters throughout this book. Like, it's not just the main characters that we've discussed, although there's another layer, it's just a very small thing, but a small thing that really jumped out at me and I'm sure it jumped out at you and irritated you as it did me, when Jessi says that she can't be a fat ballerina. She has to watch what she eats because she can't be a fat ballerina.
[00:45:55] Kaykay: It was the most, um, pointed expression of that insecurity.
[00:45:59] Brooke: Mm hmm. So you've got Jessi having like double body insecurity, in terms of her size as well as her color, in Stoneybrook and in the circles that she's in. But then you also, see Aunt Cecelia, like explicitly expresses her insecurities, like the value that she brings. Then you get Jackie too with insecurities about he's, you know, seen as like a klutz.
And Jessi's kind of validating those insecurities for him. Validating that he should be insecure about that because she's not letting him drive the ship here with all of this. It's like implying to people, you are incapable. That just gets reinforced, and so then that's just going to become a pattern that's very difficult for them to get out of.
But at least you do see Charlotte coming forward. And we know that Charlotte has in the past been very shy and not wanting to be out on stage and sort of like be in the spotlight. But you see Charlotte come through and she's the one that, of all of the kids that participate, ends up winning a third place ribbon or something like that, and is really proud of herself for that.
So you do get to see some change over the course of the series, but nobody has it all figured out. There's still lingering insecurities that are going to come up time and time again.
[00:47:20] Kaykay: Very true. And the book does such a good job of showing the way that, you know, that's life, right? Like that's the human existence experience. You're always going to have those. And what it takes is the awareness of what's happening for you, of starting to become aware of your patterns and where they might come from. And just even that awareness alone often slows them and changes them. But nobody's ever going to be free from them. It's what it is to be human.
It's sort of the beautifulness and the challenge of it. And the book does a really good job of showing both of those and, you know, almost like accepting them, you know, accepting that we all have them. It's not this like, oh, look at the other problem you have, you're insecure. It's another problem of yours, you know, but a sense of how do we kind of soften and open to how we are? Letting that thoughtfulness change the way we might interact with people.
Because the thing about insecurities is they're very narcissistic. And I don't mean that in a sense of you're purposefully narcissistic, but they really block you from seeing other people, or like seeing what other people, what's happening for them, right? They put blinders over your eyes. So, you know, seeing your own insecurities and ways of being, the most beautiful thing about it is that it then opens you so that you can let other people step forward into your world.
[00:48:49] Brooke: Yeah, definitely. So speaking of insecurities, uh, what did you have for Most 90s Moments?
[00:48:55] Kaykay: Yeah, I think we get all, you know, all of us at this age around the same age, that's a ripe time for insecurity, no doubt. Oh my God, teen years. Oof.
So going to a million stores for something rather than online shopping. So Jackie's got to find all these complicated chemicals that sound like they're just not at everyday stores. What the fuck?
[00:49:14] Brooke: Yeah, where are they going?
[00:49:16] Kaykay: Hardware stores, maybe?
[00:49:18] Brooke: I don't know, but I'm a little bit scared about where Jackie is sourcing his chemicals from in Stoneybrook, Connecticut.
[00:49:30] Kaykay: That was very 90s to me, you know? Cause now it'd be like, oh, you look online, blah, blah, blah, chemical. Buy it. Bloop!
[00:49:36] Brooke: Yeah. Buy, go immediately on the governmental watch list. Yes.
[00:49:40] Kaykay: Even so, you're gonna get it.
[00:49:41] Brooke: Yeah, I know. I know, exactly.
[00:49:42] Kaykay: You might have a knock at the door by the FBI, but...
[00:49:45] Brooke: Yeah. Two in one, you know?
[00:49:49] Kaykay: And then, uh, this made me laugh. They spray the chemicals down into the sewer.
[00:49:56] Brooke: I saw that too!
[00:50:01] Kaykay: These special chemicals that are too dangerous to have in regular stores, they just washed down into the sewer with a hose. I was like, that's very 90s.
[00:50:10] Brooke: Yeah. It made me think of National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. It was very Cousin Eddie.
[00:50:14] Kaykay: When he's dumping the shitter? Legend.
[00:50:19] Brooke: I had, an expectation of leisure time. So Jessi's mom, the whole reason why Aunt Cecelia is moving in, it's not just, Hey, what the fuck is going on, Ramsey parents, leaving Jessi to care for your children so you could just go away for the weekend? But also that Jessi's mom got a job and they talk about how her job is going to be 9 to 5, Monday through Friday. Sometimes maybe even a little more than that. That means she won't have time to shop or cook or take care of the house.
I'm like, a 9 to 5 job is something that most people are like, if I could only work 40 hours a week now, right? Or at least has been up until the very recent, you know, the people starting to do some re-evaluations.
[00:51:04] Kaykay: The Great Resignation.
[00:51:06] Brooke: Yeah, exactly. Although the broader work-life balance, if you have a job, most of the time, for most people, it has not corrected to be what people want. But in the 90s, you've got a 9 to 5, how are you going to grocery shop? I don't remember it being like that, but at least in this world that was presented as being reasonable and not something that somebody would immediately be like, are you fucking kidding me? You only have a 9 to 5? That's great.
[00:51:32] Kaykay: Go for it. Yep.
[00:51:33] Brooke: And then I also had that Mallory proposes braiding the world's longest friendship bracelet. Did you ever braid friendship bracelets?
[00:51:43] Kaykay: I made lanyards.
[00:51:44] Brooke: Okay.
[00:51:44] Kaykay: Does that count?
[00:51:45] Brooke: Sure.
[00:51:46] Kaykay: Friendship lanyards.
[00:51:47] Brooke: Did you use like embroidery thread and did you like have them, like...
[00:51:51] Kaykay: Mm, it was like plastic stuff. You made this long rectangle and gave it to someone and they were supposed to put it on their key chain. It was this weird long plastic strip. And then you sort of do this sort of box pattern, almost like you were doing a basket or something where you would lay them over each other. And that would make the rows that would build up.
[00:52:09] Brooke: Awesome. Seriously, craft projects were just delightful. It was just like, you just find basically like trash and figure out how to make it into something that is extensively functional, but not really.
[00:52:22] Kaykay: Again, no screens is what that's all about.
[00:52:26] Brooke: Yeah. I remember sitting on my bed making friendship bracelets just for like hours. And so you would get your embroidery thread and the different colors that you wanted, and then you would tape them, like an actual piece of tape that I would put down on the cover of the hard cover book. And then you would just do like elaborate sort of braiding slash knotting techniques.
[00:52:49] Kaykay: Oh, yeah!
[00:52:50] Brooke: And then give it to a friend and it kind of comes together, and it's one of those things where like, you'd have to cut it to take it off, so the whole thing is like, as long as you're wearing it, that represents you, the friend. And the friendship bracelet has to stay on as long as you're friends. So if you cut someone's friendship bracelet off, that is hardcore. That is brutal. That is an assault on your heart.
[00:53:13] Kaykay: It's over. Oh my God, I just plugged friendship bracelets into Images and yes, of course I know these. I don't think I made them, but I know that I received them.
[00:53:26] Brooke: That's very sweet.
[00:53:27] Kaykay: You know, in typical Kaykay style, like not so good at the crafts, but loves her friends deeply, and so would receive such things as that. Then I can teach you how to play basketball. You know what I'm saying? Like, you make me a friendship bracelet, I can teach you any sport you need to know. I'm not going to make your friendship bracelet. Let's get real.
[00:53:46] Brooke: That's a lovely exchange. You will take the good that is given to you and you will provide them with a service in return.
[00:53:55] Kaykay: That's right.
[00:53:56] Brooke: I love that. You're like, I will mow your lawn.
[00:53:59] Kaykay: Exactly, exactly. Teach you how to play guitar.
[00:54:04] Brooke: That's highly valuable. I think that's more valuable than knotted embroidery thread, but it's the sentiment behind it that counts.
[00:54:11] Kaykay: It's debatable, you know? It's debatable. We're living in a simulation anyway, so none of this matters.
[00:54:15] Brooke: Yeah. I mean, whatever. Oh man. And then the last thing that I had was Ann M was really trying to make fresh happen in this book.
[00:54:25] Kaykay: Stop trying to make fresh happen.
[00:54:26] Brooke: You know, everything was fresh. And there were times when she would use it in a way that in the 90s made sense, and you could still hear it now where it's like, "Oh, those clothes are fresh" or whatever, like "that look is fresh." But then she was using it in like terms of like, a job is fresh or something. That's not a thing. But she's trying.
[00:54:46] Kaykay: Yeah, I did see that.
[00:54:47] Brooke: She made an effort, which I thought was nice.
[00:54:51] Kaykay: There also was a lot of totallys throughout the book. I do see Ann M trying to update her language a little bit to what the kids are saying.
[00:55:00] Brooke: Kids are saying these days. Hence why I still say totally all the time.
[00:55:04] Kaykay: I say, totally, I say fresh, I say dope. These are still my main, uh, exclamations.
[00:55:10] Brooke: Your proclamations. You have proclaimed it as fresh.
[00:55:12] Kaykay: I hereby proclaim this as fresh.
[00:55:15] Brooke: Something that we had proclaimed as fresh a year ago was the Netflix adaptation of The Baby-sitter's Club. The first season.
[00:55:23] Kaykay: Yes, so fresh.
[00:55:25] Brooke: And it was proclaimed fresh, correct, by Rotten Tomatoes? Like 100 percent, as was the second season. And then Netflix just pulled one of the most boneheaded moves, I mean, they're making just like terrible decisions left and right lately let's get real, and canceled it. But we still have a season to watch, which is supposed to be absolutely delightful.
And as we had promised, we are going to take another summer vacation coming up. And that vacation is not a vacation from this podcast. It is a vacation from the books. Because we are going to cover the second season of The Baby-sitters Club on Netflix in our next several episodes over the summer.
It seems like it makes sense. August 1990, it's the end of the summer in the time period we're looking at, it's the end of the summer in the books, but it's the beginning of our summer. So let's keep the summer rollin' by taking a little vacation to the Netflix land. And what we will be doing will be a little bit different than what we did last year.
So previously we did one episode a week focusing on one episode of the series. What we're going to do instead is we're going to keep with our general cadence. So we're going to keep on releasing the show biweekly. And what we'll do is we're going to talk about two episodes of the Netflix series at a time.
So the next episode of this podcast will come out in two weeks. And in that episode, we will be discussing both episode one and episode two of season two of the Netflix series. And then we'll do the same for the next three episodes that follow that, cause there's eight episodes in the season.
[00:57:11] Kaykay: I'm pumped.
[00:57:12] Brooke: I am pumped to get into it because I loved the first season so much. It was so freaking good.
[00:57:17] Kaykay: Me too. And it was so hard to just watch one episode, so I'm really glad we're allowing ourselves to discuss two at a time.
[00:57:23] Brooke: Exactly, keep it rolling. And plus, there's things that, you know, themes that get carried over. So we'll still be able to talk about each episode. I'm sure we'll have our individual portion of things to say. And then we'll sort of talk about how it all comes together. We'll see how it goes, but it's going to be fun. And I am excited to do a little more TV criticism with you next time, Kaykay.
[00:57:46] Kaykay: Can't wait, friend.
[00:57:48] Brooke: But until then...
[00:57:51] Kaykay: Just keep sittin'! [theme] Cause I will attack, and you don't want that!